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	<title>Comments on: Mathematical Modeling Of Menopause</title>
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	<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/</link>
	<description>The Internet&#039;s Best Evolutionary Psycholo-guy</description>
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		<title>By: Nuclear Wheelchair</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Wheelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-875</guid>
		<description>But that&#039;s not a full explanation. 

The males of our closest relative, the chimp, have sexual preferences almost completely opposite to us. They prefer the older females towards the end of their breeding lives. The reason for the difference seems to be that male chimps are highly promiscuous, pursue only short term &quot;pump and dump&quot; relations with the females and don&#039;t play any role in the raising of their offspring so it makes sense for them to go for the older females of proven fertility and mothering ability.

Human males seem to be wired to choose females more for long term than short term relations. They prefer young females nearer the beginning of their breeding lives that have the maximum long term breeding potential.

So the big question is why has this system evolved in us but not chimps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But that&#8217;s not a full explanation. </p>
<p>The males of our closest relative, the chimp, have sexual preferences almost completely opposite to us. They prefer the older females towards the end of their breeding lives. The reason for the difference seems to be that male chimps are highly promiscuous, pursue only short term &#8220;pump and dump&#8221; relations with the females and don&#8217;t play any role in the raising of their offspring so it makes sense for them to go for the older females of proven fertility and mothering ability.</p>
<p>Human males seem to be wired to choose females more for long term than short term relations. They prefer young females nearer the beginning of their breeding lives that have the maximum long term breeding potential.</p>
<p>So the big question is why has this system evolved in us but not chimps?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Marczyk</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-874</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Marczyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-874</guid>
		<description>That requires biological theory. I think we happen to already have the answer for men&#039;s preferences (women&#039;s fertility tends to declines over their lifespan to the point it reaches zero), which then leaves us the task of explaining the decline in women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That requires biological theory. I think we happen to already have the answer for men&#8217;s preferences (women&#8217;s fertility tends to declines over their lifespan to the point it reaches zero), which then leaves us the task of explaining the decline in women.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nuclear Wheelchair</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-873</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Wheelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-873</guid>
		<description>So how do we answer it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how do we answer it?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Marczyk</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-872</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Marczyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-872</guid>
		<description>I do not, but I also don&#039;t think it&#039;s the kind of question that modeling should be used to answer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not, but I also don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the kind of question that modeling should be used to answer</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nuclear Wheelchair</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Wheelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-871</guid>
		<description>While we&#039;re on the topic of mathematical modelling, do you know of any models that try to find why the preference for young women has arisen in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While we&#8217;re on the topic of mathematical modelling, do you know of any models that try to find why the preference for young women has arisen in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Marczyk</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-866</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Marczyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 05:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-866</guid>
		<description>Point taken. Perhaps a new category of tag could be created. &quot;Modeling&quot; might be more appropriate than &quot;Game Theory&quot;. 

The authors don&#039;t say that they explained the behavior, no; what they do say is that they show ideas like the grandmother hypothesis aren&#039;t necessarily required. Which is true, of course, but we didn&#039;t need the model to tell us that; it doesn&#039;t get us anywhere new. The authors could have written &quot;if men preferred younger mates, women could potentially accumulate mutations resulting in menopause as a byproduct&quot; and left it at that without the quality of the paper suffering much.  

I have the same concern with using mathematical models that I tend to also have with using brain scans to do psychology: as tools, they aren&#039;t doing much (or sometimes any) of the theoretical lifting that research requires, but some people have the impression that they do. I hope to do whatever small part I can to convince people of that. Mathematically one one can demonstrate that anything is plausible, given the right set of assumptions. Mathematical plausibility is distinct from biological plausibility though, as Cohen eloquently stated in his commentary on the piece. I&#039;m all for building on ideas, but that is precisely what this paper fails to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken. Perhaps a new category of tag could be created. &#8220;Modeling&#8221; might be more appropriate than &#8220;Game Theory&#8221;. </p>
<p>The authors don&#8217;t say that they explained the behavior, no; what they do say is that they show ideas like the grandmother hypothesis aren&#8217;t necessarily required. Which is true, of course, but we didn&#8217;t need the model to tell us that; it doesn&#8217;t get us anywhere new. The authors could have written &#8220;if men preferred younger mates, women could potentially accumulate mutations resulting in menopause as a byproduct&#8221; and left it at that without the quality of the paper suffering much.  </p>
<p>I have the same concern with using mathematical models that I tend to also have with using brain scans to do psychology: as tools, they aren&#8217;t doing much (or sometimes any) of the theoretical lifting that research requires, but some people have the impression that they do. I hope to do whatever small part I can to convince people of that. Mathematically one one can demonstrate that anything is plausible, given the right set of assumptions. Mathematical plausibility is distinct from biological plausibility though, as Cohen eloquently stated in his commentary on the piece. I&#8217;m all for building on ideas, but that is precisely what this paper fails to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Olive</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator>Olive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-865</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.

I understand your skepticism, however tagging some topics as game theory can be tricky.  There&#039;s something called &quot;expected value&quot;, which is basically the way most games are evaluated either as a win or a loss.  I think it&#039;s important to separate the quantitative from the qualitative when dealing with human situations.  A model is never perfectly quantitative (as the study in question portrays) nor it is perfectly qualitative as most evolutionary psychologists would explain the world.  It&#039;s probably (as in probability) somewhere in between.   This becomes even murkier when you take processes into consideration, but that&#039;s a different discussion altogether.

So yes, the study is too simplistic, but as an effort, it has some validity.  Mathematical models usually start that way... The idea is to present an idea that can help someone to come up with a better model.  I compare this to the initial efforts in trying to explain traffic jams, which now have developed to travel kits, when it comes to explaining traveling behaviour.  This building-block approach is not always present outside the &quot;exact&quot; sciences, which is a real shame, but I understand the difficulties for this to happen: explaining gravity is peanuts compared to explaining human behaviour.

So again, credit where it&#039;s due... I don&#039;t think the authors of the study pretended to explain human behaviour as such... Give a hint maybe, but not a full-fledge explanation.  They simply wanted to offer a point of entry for further discussion, and this is how it should be understood.  Your points are quite valid nevertheless... What lacks possibly is a more constructive or collaborative approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough.</p>
<p>I understand your skepticism, however tagging some topics as game theory can be tricky.  There&#8217;s something called &#8220;expected value&#8221;, which is basically the way most games are evaluated either as a win or a loss.  I think it&#8217;s important to separate the quantitative from the qualitative when dealing with human situations.  A model is never perfectly quantitative (as the study in question portrays) nor it is perfectly qualitative as most evolutionary psychologists would explain the world.  It&#8217;s probably (as in probability) somewhere in between.   This becomes even murkier when you take processes into consideration, but that&#8217;s a different discussion altogether.</p>
<p>So yes, the study is too simplistic, but as an effort, it has some validity.  Mathematical models usually start that way&#8230; The idea is to present an idea that can help someone to come up with a better model.  I compare this to the initial efforts in trying to explain traffic jams, which now have developed to travel kits, when it comes to explaining traveling behaviour.  This building-block approach is not always present outside the &#8220;exact&#8221; sciences, which is a real shame, but I understand the difficulties for this to happen: explaining gravity is peanuts compared to explaining human behaviour.</p>
<p>So again, credit where it&#8217;s due&#8230; I don&#8217;t think the authors of the study pretended to explain human behaviour as such&#8230; Give a hint maybe, but not a full-fledge explanation.  They simply wanted to offer a point of entry for further discussion, and this is how it should be understood.  Your points are quite valid nevertheless&#8230; What lacks possibly is a more constructive or collaborative approach.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nuclear Wheelchair</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-863</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Wheelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-863</guid>
		<description>Ah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah!</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Marczyk</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-862</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Marczyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-862</guid>
		<description>Yes, you pretty much got it right. Also, yes: women past their reproductive years do not stop having sex altogether. The commentary on the article say as much (http://www.ploscompbiol.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=67163).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you pretty much got it right. Also, yes: women past their reproductive years do not stop having sex altogether. The commentary on the article say as much (<a href="http://www.ploscompbiol.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=67163" rel="nofollow">http://www.ploscompbiol.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=67163</a>).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nuclear Wheelchair</title>
		<link>http://popsych.org/mathematical-modeling-of-menopause/#comment-861</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuclear Wheelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://popsych.org/?p=2103#comment-861</guid>
		<description>Or, at least, their models may over-estimate how much men avoid older women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, at least, their models may over-estimate how much men avoid older women.</p>
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