Comments on: 5 Weak Ideas About The Origin Of Homosexuality: A Reply http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/ The Internet's Best Evolutionary Psycholo-guy Wed, 03 Jan 2018 01:05:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Mothers And Others (With Benefits) | Pop Psychology http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-685 Mothers And Others (With Benefits) | Pop Psychology Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:28:16 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-685 [...] has left many evolutionary researchers scratching their heads. Though research into homosexuality has not been left wanting for hypotheses, every known hypothesis to date but one has had several major problems when it comes to accounting [...] [...] has left many evolutionary researchers scratching their heads. Though research into homosexuality has not been left wanting for hypotheses, every known hypothesis to date but one has had several major problems when it comes to accounting [...]

]]> By: A New Theory For Homosexuality: A Lot Like The Old Ones | Pop Psychology http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-566 A New Theory For Homosexuality: A Lot Like The Old Ones | Pop Psychology Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:38:14 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-566 [...] of the population that it does despite the substantial fitness costs to the sexual preference, all the adaptive explanations have been left wanting. Decades of failed research has not seemed to have deterred new hypothesizing, though. For better [...] [...] of the population that it does despite the substantial fitness costs to the sexual preference, all the adaptive explanations have been left wanting. Decades of failed research has not seemed to have deterred new hypothesizing, though. For better [...]

]]> By: Jesse Marczyk http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-470 Jesse Marczyk Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:58:17 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-470 Why should we not expect homosexuality to arise for the same reasons? Given that we already don't have a good account for it in humans (the pathogen hypothesis being the strongest current contender), I think it would be premature to suggest what we ought to expect from other species (or at least rams, as there aren't other species I know of that display this kind of pattern). As for the second part, homosexuality is not a behavior; it looks like preference. Unless every adaptive mating behavior associated with that preference was enforced equally-well, we should likely not expect the preference to be neutral. That is, social pressures do not force people to have the same amount of sex, pursue the same quality of mates, and pursue extra-pair copulations regardless of their desire to do so. In many cases, social pressures cut in the opposite direction (don't have affairs and don't pursue the mates I'm pursing). Why should we not expect homosexuality to arise for the same reasons? Given that we already don’t have a good account for it in humans (the pathogen hypothesis being the strongest current contender), I think it would be premature to suggest what we ought to expect from other species (or at least rams, as there aren’t other species I know of that display this kind of pattern).

As for the second part, homosexuality is not a behavior; it looks like preference. Unless every adaptive mating behavior associated with that preference was enforced equally-well, we should likely not expect the preference to be neutral. That is, social pressures do not force people to have the same amount of sex, pursue the same quality of mates, and pursue extra-pair copulations regardless of their desire to do so. In many cases, social pressures cut in the opposite direction (don’t have affairs and don’t pursue the mates I’m pursing).

]]> By: bernard http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-469 bernard Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:32:21 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-469 It wouldn't explain homosexuality in rams but we shouldn't expect homosexuality to arise in different species for the same reasons and i'm not proposing that this is the complete explanation for why it has arisen in our species. It's just a thought i had that if a behavior necessary for survival and reproduction is enforced by social rules or institutions that the selection pressures that gave rise to that behavior would become a bit "flabby" and make it possible for drives contrary to that behavior to arise <i>since the behavior itself is enforced by the social rules</i>. If you get what i mean. It wouldn’t explain homosexuality in rams but we shouldn’t expect homosexuality to arise in different species for the same reasons and i’m not proposing that this is the complete explanation for why it has arisen in our species.

It’s just a thought i had that if a behavior necessary for survival and reproduction is enforced by social rules or institutions that the selection pressures that gave rise to that behavior would become a bit “flabby” and make it possible for drives contrary to that behavior to arise since the behavior itself is enforced by the social rules.

If you get what i mean.

]]> By: Jesse Marczyk http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-468 Jesse Marczyk Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:06:59 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-468 For starters, it certainly wouldn't explain homosexuality in the rams. Further, even if, say, a homosexual man was married to a homosexual woman, a disinclination towards engaging in intercourse with their partner could lead to maladaptive outcomes like not caring about the quality of partner one has, not engaging in otherwise adaptive intercourse with that partner, passing up on otherwise adaptive affairs, and so on down the line. A buffer hypothesis would need to posit that homosexuality - an aversion towards pursing members of the opposite sex - has always been, essentially, reproductively neutral with respect to an interest in pursing members of the opposite sex. It just doesn't sound particularly plausible, anymore than a preference for eating rocks would likely be reproductive neutral, relative to eating food with nutritional value. For starters, it certainly wouldn’t explain homosexuality in the rams. Further, even if, say, a homosexual man was married to a homosexual woman, a disinclination towards engaging in intercourse with their partner could lead to maladaptive outcomes like not caring about the quality of partner one has, not engaging in otherwise adaptive intercourse with that partner, passing up on otherwise adaptive affairs, and so on down the line.

A buffer hypothesis would need to posit that homosexuality – an aversion towards pursing members of the opposite sex – has always been, essentially, reproductively neutral with respect to an interest in pursing members of the opposite sex. It just doesn’t sound particularly plausible, anymore than a preference for eating rocks would likely be reproductive neutral, relative to eating food with nutritional value.

]]> By: bernard http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-467 bernard Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:52:21 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-467 What about a buffer theory? A few years ago i had the thought that genes for homosexuality may have been spared extinction by institutions of marriage and heterosexuality. Even the most primitive societies have some tradition of marriage so that homosexual people end up marrying and reproducing. For thousands of years these institutions would have buffered "gay genes" from natural selection to some extent and allowed them to survive. Just an idea i had. What about a buffer theory?

A few years ago i had the thought that genes for homosexuality may have been spared extinction by institutions of marriage and heterosexuality. Even the most primitive societies have some tradition of marriage so that homosexual people end up marrying and reproducing. For thousands of years these institutions would have buffered “gay genes” from natural selection to some extent and allowed them to survive.

Just an idea i had.

]]> By: Frank http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-466 Frank Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:56:24 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-466 ---> Sexually Antagonistic Selection <--- Some interesting work has come out recently that supports this view, even if tentatively. 1) VanderLaan DP, Forrester DL, Petterson LJ, Vasey PL (2012) Offspring Production among the Extended Relatives of Samoan Men and Fa'afafine. PLoS ONE 7(4): e36088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0036088 "This study compared the reproductive output of the paternal and maternal line grandmothers, aunts, and uncles of 86 Samoan androphilic males, known locally as fa'afafine, and 86 Samoan gynephilic males. Reproductive output was elevated in the paternal and maternal line grandmothers, but not aunts or uncles, of fa'afafine. These findings are consistent with the sexual antagonism hypothesis and suggest that male androphilia is associated with elevated reproduction among extended relatives in both the maternal and paternal line. Discussion focuses on how this study, in conjunction with the broader literature, informs various models for the evolution of male androphilia via elevated reproduction on the part of female kin." 2) Camperio Ciani A, Pellizzari E (2012) Fecundity of Paternal and Maternal Non-Parental Female Relatives of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men. PLoS ONE 7(12): e51088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0051088. —> Sexually Antagonistic Selection <—

Some interesting work has come out recently that supports this view, even if tentatively.

1) VanderLaan DP, Forrester DL, Petterson LJ, Vasey PL (2012) Offspring Production among the Extended Relatives of Samoan Men and Fa'afafine. PLoS ONE 7(4): e36088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0036088

"This study compared the reproductive output of the paternal and maternal line grandmothers, aunts, and uncles of 86 Samoan androphilic males, known locally as fa'afafine, and 86 Samoan gynephilic males. Reproductive output was elevated in the paternal and maternal line grandmothers, but not aunts or uncles, of fa'afafine. These findings are consistent with the sexual antagonism hypothesis and suggest that male androphilia is associated with elevated reproduction among extended relatives in both the maternal and paternal line. Discussion focuses on how this study, in conjunction with the broader literature, informs various models for the evolution of male androphilia via elevated reproduction on the part of female kin."

2) Camperio Ciani A, Pellizzari E (2012) Fecundity of Paternal and Maternal Non-Parental Female Relatives of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men. PLoS ONE 7(12): e51088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0051088.

]]> By: Jesse Marczyk http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-464 Jesse Marczyk Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:32:28 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-464 Genes are not typically related to specific behaviors in a 1-to-1 fashion, no. Genes are, however, necessarily related to all behaviors in some way. That first hypothesis would be, basically, some kind of balancing selection, and would have the same criticisms that I outlined above. As for two, the concordance rates tell us (though we shouldn't need them to) that there's more to the development of a homosexual orientation than genes. It could be the case that genes that predispose people towards the development of a homosexual orientation are typically not harmful, so they stick around. That's all well and good, but what that doesn't tell us is anything about how or why those genes predispose one towards homosexuality. Basically, the developmental story is missing here, and that story is going to turn out to be very important. Genes are not typically related to specific behaviors in a 1-to-1 fashion, no. Genes are, however, necessarily related to all behaviors in some way. That first hypothesis would be, basically, some kind of balancing selection, and would have the same criticisms that I outlined above.

As for two, the concordance rates tell us (though we shouldn’t need them to) that there’s more to the development of a homosexual orientation than genes. It could be the case that genes that predispose people towards the development of a homosexual orientation are typically not harmful, so they stick around. That’s all well and good, but what that doesn’t tell us is anything about how or why those genes predispose one towards homosexuality. Basically, the developmental story is missing here, and that story is going to turn out to be very important.

]]> By: Jesse Marczyk http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-463 Jesse Marczyk Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:12:32 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-463 Sure, it's a possibility. That's what you typically see in species that contain sexually-selected traits, like peacock tails. Having the larger tail is both more costly to grow and maintain, and it makes the carrier more vulnerable to predation. However, these costs are offset by increased reproductive benefits during the peacock's lifespan. I'm dismissive of the claim here because, (a) according to the way Mark presented it, women might find homosexual men more appealing because those men aren't trying to have sex with them, which means no reproductive advantage and (b) there's no evidence for some sexually-selected byproduct in the case. Sure, it’s a possibility. That’s what you typically see in species that contain sexually-selected traits, like peacock tails. Having the larger tail is both more costly to grow and maintain, and it makes the carrier more vulnerable to predation. However, these costs are offset by increased reproductive benefits during the peacock’s lifespan. I’m dismissive of the claim here because, (a) according to the way Mark presented it, women might find homosexual men more appealing because those men aren’t trying to have sex with them, which means no reproductive advantage and (b) there’s no evidence for some sexually-selected byproduct in the case.

]]> By: Jesse Marczyk http://popsych.org/5-weak-ideas-about-the-origin-of-homosexuality-a-reply/#comment-462 Jesse Marczyk Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:08:38 +0000 http://popsych.org/?p=1376#comment-462 The conclusion, I think, hinges on the meaning of the word "illness". In my case, I do not equate "caused by an infectious agent" with "illness". For instance, consider a viral infection that, if acquired at a certain point during development, resulted in something positive (say, an increase in IQ). Most people would not consider a high IQ to be a hallmark of mental illness. One can certainly say that an outcome like exclusive homosexuality would be maladaptive, but that is a separate matter. The conclusion, I think, hinges on the meaning of the word “illness”. In my case, I do not equate “caused by an infectious agent” with “illness”. For instance, consider a viral infection that, if acquired at a certain point during development, resulted in something positive (say, an increase in IQ). Most people would not consider a high IQ to be a hallmark of mental illness.

One can certainly say that an outcome like exclusive homosexuality would be maladaptive, but that is a separate matter.

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